I can't tell you the number of times I have told Tess that my life is stranger than fiction. I swear you can't make this shit up. Today I have few things I want to talk about.
The first is about the comment I received on my Crazy Train post that I feel is from Jefferson. I have thought about this since it happened and I want to say a final few thoughts on it. I am 100% sure Jefferson was on my blog at the time the comment was left on that post however I am not 100% sure that Jefferson left that comment. There is no way I could be unless he said he did and that is the reason I wrote the Freedom of Speech post because I felt that if I was going to accuse Jefferson of doing something like that then I should also disclose everything that had to do with that comment including that email. Everyone can decide what they want about this after reading all of the facts.
I also want to address the point of being outed to my husband about my blog. Since I started writing my blog I have been very careful with what I write on my blog. I try to give as little private information as possible on here and there have been many times that I wanted to write a post but decided against it because I would need to give out more information than what I felt comfortable with. I have known since the first day I started writing that there is a chance someone I know could stumble across my blog and tell my husband. It is a risk all of us who blog anonymously take when we write about our lives. I don't ever want my husband to find this blog because I know it will hurt him very much. It is one thing to know your wife cheated but it is another thing to read about it in great detail. It is a risk that I am fully aware I take and may at some point have to face the consequences of. The threat of being outed was also an issue for me not too long ago and I locked my blog for a few days until I knew there was not actually a threat. That is another post entirely that I will be writing about in the future.
After thinking about all of this I have made the decision to keep writing my blog. As I wrote in my post The Future I want to continue to write about my life and where this journey takes me. I know the risk that is out there for me and under the circumstances I am at more of a risk than the average blogger. If the day comes that my husband has found my blog I do know what the consequences will be.
I personally don't think Jefferson would ever tell my husband about my blog. From my experience Jefferson shies away from any women who have strength and stand up to him. Now that I no longer drink the kool aid I have found that strength I had before all of this happened in my life I think Jefferson realizes that. If Jefferson did leave that comment I think it was only with the intent to have me stop writing.
At the same time that I was dealing with the comment left on my blog basically threatening to out me to my husband I received an email from someone who reads my blog. I was getting several comments and emails at this point and was under a little bit of stress about all of it. When I opened this email I was totally shocked. This person told me how he was able to find out Jefferson's true identity. I will not say how he was able to do this other than that when Tess and I followed what he did we were able to find Jefferson's identity also.
Do I need to tell you how much I didn't want to be the one who knew this information? I also don't think I need to tell you that Jefferson and I are not on speaking terms and the FOJ don't seem overly fond of me these days. I knew if this person could do what they did and discover who he was anyone could do this too.
Many people say many things about what I write and why I write about Jefferson. I don't think anyone knows my reasons other than me. I have said this before since I started these posts. I don't hate Jefferson and I am not out to destroy his life. This is my blog about the life I had lead all these months and the life I will lead in the future. That is what I am writing here.
I sat on that email for a day trying to figure out what to do with it. I knew I needed to tell someone but who in Jefferson's life would even listen to what I had to say and believe me. It wasn't so much my concern for Jefferson that bugged me about this. As far as I am concerned he was the dumb ass who outed himself but I was concerned for his ex-wife and children. It was not right that their identities be compromised because he did something so stupid.
I finally decided to forward the email to a few members of the FOJ and let them know what happened. Whether we are on speaking terms or not what was important was the risk that Jefferson and quite possibly his family faced that he had no idea of. This was what I sent to three FOJ members, Jefferson and Tess. I have "XXXX" over parts of the email that I felt should not be public knowledge.
I am as unhappy emailing you as you are to see this in your inbox but contrary to the FOJ party line I do not hate Jefferson or wish him harm and when I received this email from a reader I knew I had to let someone know that by XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Jefferson essentially outed himself to anyone with enough curiosity, a computer and an internet connection.
You Viviane being an internet guru and you, Bridget with XXXXXXXXXXXX should have known that anyone could do this. This guy explained exactly how he was able to figure this out and both Tess and I found it very easy to do.
Now not only has XXXX XXXXXX led to the possibility of anyone finding him but also, once again, his lack of judgment has put his kids and ex-wife at risk as well XXXXXXX XXXX XXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX.
Maybe you, the friends of Jefferson as you call yourselves, should do the right thing for once and advise him to forgo his blog and xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxx for the moment, and to simply get off his ass and get a job and prove that he actually can put his kids before himself for once.
So far all you have managed to do is make a further train wreck of his life than it already was. Which wasn't easy to do. What you accomplished with your plea of aid was to unleash the scads of people who seem to have long standing issues with J and are posting things that even shock me in Dacia's comments. I don't know if the last one is true or not but if he actually charged people to watch him fuck young girls he is beyond reprehensible. If that is the FOJ idea of sexual freedom thanks but you can all keep it.
You may notice that I am just a tad ticked off in that email. This should never have happened and it pisses me off that both Jefferson and others let it.
Posts
67 comments:
Your post is confusing. Did Jefferson slip up and leave a trail to his identity or are all bloggers, and internet folks vulnerable from this formula? Sorry for comments from the peanut gallery but it's not really translating.
I will tell you that I went back and read some of Dacia's diary recently and she had a post that mentions a music video Jefferson is in, by the title, and the role he plays. It's in the same post where Dacia describes letting Jefferson lap up her pussy, but I guess that's not sex in her mind. All my curiosities about what the guy looked like were taken care of though!
Anon,
Jefferson did something stupid that only put himself at risk for outing his identity. This was corrected before I ever posted this.
As far as Jefferson being in that music video I think you are incorrect. If I am not mistaken I think I read on his blog that he was cut from that video after it was filmed. Someone else might know better.
Diva
He would post on Craigs list. "Live Sex Show" or, "Bi Sexual Lessons" the money would be split. The "Bukkake Social Circle" was also something that he charged, each man had to pay $50 to enter/watch.
Wow. Jefferson is very VERY lucky that the person who figured this out emailed you rather than post his identity for everyone to see. He's also lucky that you are a nonvindictive and decent person who doesn't want to see his family get hurt for his stupidity. I wonder if he will have the decency to thank you, or will he get his FoJ harem to do it for him? (I noticed he changed something in his latest blog update too.)
It really is stranger than fiction. Someday you oughta write a book!
P.S. To Jeffer--oops, I mean person who swears he isn't threatening Diva: Sorry, dude. My "application" of Occam's Razor isn't going to be wrong just because you say so. You must be used to being able to get away with that shit.
Shilly,
I have not heard from Jefferson since I sent him the email yesterday and I don't expect to since he never says thank you or apologizes for any thing.
The only response I did receive was from Viviane who did thank me for the note.
Diva
Wow. I agree with Shilly. He's very lucky that this person let you know and that you're a good and kind person.
Sadly, isn't jefferson accustomed to relying on the kindness of others? This won't be any different.
After reading about all this, Jefferson seems to be out of control. I think he has a compulsion to take risks and is going to keep taking ever-bigger ones.
Even Diva has blogged about this. A week or so after getting a new apartment, having been FORCED to move because of complaints about the orgies, what is he doing? Throwing Bukkake parties.
Now we find out that he advertised them on Craig's List and charged for them.
Not. Good.
Shilly,
If you want to continue the discussion of Occam's Razor,and why I'm not Jefferson, you have an email address to get to me. I'm done disturbing Diva's blog.
Willy Wonka
"As far as Jefferson being in that music video I think you are incorrect. If I am not mistaken I think I read on his blog that he was cut from that video after it was filmed."
Well for what it's worth, it was blogged about (before Youtube, mind you) and at the time he would have had no way of knowing if he was edited out, so he obviously had no objection with having his identity revealed. It was a group that was growing in popularity at the time, and you can check out the video yourself and decide. Same nose as in his blog photo.
"you have an email address to get to me. I'm done disturbing Diva's blog."
That sounds like Jefferson's writing to me.
Maybe on a subconscious level Jefferson didn't mind having his real name known? His identity must have merged with Jefferson long ago.
Everyone says he wasn't doing much besides having sex so why would it matter?
"Maybe on a subconscious level Jefferson didn't mind having his real name known? His identity must have merged with Jefferson long ago."
That's exactly what I think. 'Jefferson' IS his whole identity. That has been clear to any outsider reading his blog. Down to encouraging the women he fucks to start their own blogs, by linking to them over and over.
Does he even know anyone any more without a blog? Or any bloggers that aren't sex bloggers?
I think he's been collapsing his worlds for a long time: the public pervert and the private parent. This is the result.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cas/818903501.html
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cas/818987792.html
http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cas/818698139.html
Jefferson was a busy boy this weekend. Wonder if he managed to make rent?
If that's him in the Craig's list postings, I feel sick. Can't the Friends of Jefferson pay his rent? They love him so much. After what has happened, I can't imagine having the desire to still host this type of party.
Personally, I distinguish between the free expression of sexuality regardless of kink or whatever AND having someone PAY YOU to be involved. That is a financial transaction pure and simple. And illegal too?
Wow. I am in shock.
I guess it was foolish of me, but I assumed he would cease those activities given the situation.
Diva, I don't want you to feel bad but if you had signed that lease, you too might have been responsible for any activity that takes place in that apartment if the police get involved and arrests were made. You would have really opened yourself up to risk.
While we don't know with certainty who posted those CL ads, and I am sure there is more than one blond bisexual man out there eager to disclose the youth of the girl but less so his own age, and to want a "generous" partcipant, this is looking pretty damning.
I am not at all anti-prostitution. But, and since I have heard this before directly from someone close to him, the fact that someone would take young, sexually inexperienced women and over the course of a few months transform them into whores, whether with or without their knowledge, is repugnant.
Tess, I agree. I am not anti-prostitution either. I think that it shouldn't even be a crime. But it is.
Personally I would be relieved if I narrowly missed signing a lease for someone who commits possible crimes in the place held in my name. I am not basing this on the above Craigslist postings. I have always felt that way. I am not sure that orgies and the other activites posted in Jefferson's blog are legal if neighbors want to complain to the police. I would rather not go to court to find out. I don't think that the Friends of Jefferson who wouldn't sign Jefferson's lease wanted to expose themselves like this either. They would let Diva do something that they themselves wouldn't do though. Ugh.
Back to the reason I am commenting here
"the fact that someone would take young, sexually inexperienced women and over the course of a few months transform them into whores, whether with or without their knowledge, is repugnant."
Repugnant indeed. To make these women feel like they are exploring their sexuality in a safe environment while charging the other participants on the side is morally reprehensible. Jefferson set out to find people to join the sex show as bait.
The first of those craigslist postings has now been removed by its author. Hmmmmmm.
"I am not at all anti-prostitution. But, and since I have heard this before directly from someone close to him, the fact that someone would take young, sexually inexperienced women and over the course of a few months transform them into whores, whether with or without their knowledge, is repugnant"
tess although I mostly agree with you I don't like the way you've phrased this.
I'm feminist and pro sex work. That doesn't make me pro prostitution. Do I think it should be legal? Absolutely, because that would protect the women involved in it.
the harsh reality of prostitution isn't college girls turning tricks for loads of money and (giggle) for fun!! -- It is drug addicted women with histories of sexual abuse, who have no other options for employment, giving blow jobs for 10 bucks and competing with trannies on 10th ave and turning over their earnings to a pimp. THAT is the reality of prostitution, and no sane woman, no feminist, would be 'pro' THAT. I know you must not be either. There is NOTHING wrong with being 'anti-prostitution', when it means being opposed to that kind of practice, and all thinking people should be.
Apparently Jefferson acted as a pimp. Apparently Jefferson coerced young women into performing acts they didn't want to perform, and he used their love for him and the lure of money to make it happen.
That sounds like a pimp.
It doesn't matter that he didn't hit them, didn't get them addicted to drugs, didn't threaten them. If you can see that J was wrong to exploit the love of privileged and protected young women in this way, can't you see that it's at least as wrong as when it happens to the scared 13 year old runaway at port authority who meets a charming stranger?
Sorry, off soap box now, but I think it's very important that we don't confuse sex work, which is a deliberately chosen job option, with what most prostitution is: a job of last resort, often unwillingly chosen and reluctantly engaged in.
I don't claim to be an expert, but if all that ever occured was live sex shows, that's technically not prostitution and probably not illegal.
Live sex shows are often eradicated from cities through zoning ordinances, precisely because they aren't criminal. Or, at least, they aren't prostitution. Maybe obscenity laws get them off city streets too? I don't know. But, even if that's the case, obscenity in the privacy of one's home is generally protected under the penumbras of the First Amendment.
Again, I'm by no means an expert and I don't know anything about NYC specifically, but that's my general sense of the law.
How that would then reflect on him as a parent is a different question. Maybe it would show bad judgment? But then, are all those who engage in legal sexual expression for money, pornographers and porn stars, exhibiting bad judgment and automatically bad parents too? ...I'm honestly somewhat undecided on that one.
I should also say I'm hesitant to just accept that those CL posts were Jefferson. Maybe. But I've been reading all these blogs for a while now and I've never come across rumors of him offering actual sexual *contact* before. This would seem a really inopportune time to start.
And he never seemed stupid. Just as he always seemed slutty, but never a whore or pimp.
Which reminds me, to go off on a bit of a tangent, I don't understand how he could tranform young women into whores without their knowledge? Wouldn't they um... know?
Maybe I am in the wrong place, because I usually find myself sympathizing with Jefferson in these online debates.
I also usually wisely refrain from commenting.
Just flag them. Take away his ability to solicit on Craigslist.
And to those in the know, please stop holding your tongues.
"the harsh reality of prostitution...is drug addicted women with histories of sexual abuse, who have no other options for employment, giving blow jobs for 10 bucks and competing with trannies on 10th ave and turning over their earnings to a pimp. THAT is the reality of prostitution, and no sane woman, no feminist, would be 'pro'"
For what it is worth, I wrote the comment agreeing with Tess. I don't think that prostitution should be illegal for many reasons. Maybe I am pro-sex worker? I don't know the proper nomenclature. I do feel extremely bad for the girls and women engaged in what you described above and the hopelessness they can feel.
Anon,
Before I agreed to sign the list I gave Jefferson a list of conditions. One of them was that he would not have any sex parties in the apartment. He told me at the time he had no desire to have them anymore and at that moment I had no clue how much he lied and believed what he said to me.
Shilly,
This is the ad that was deleted by the author. Coincidentally that ad was deleted within 5 minutes of Jefferson reading my blog today.
Live Sex Show - mw4m
Reply to: pers-@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-08-29, 7:59PM
We a hot couple, and we love to be watched as we go at it. Our friends joke that it's pretty easy to get us naked and watch us fuck.
So we decided, why not enjoy that? We're open to having a generous pair of eyes join us, and we can host.
She 21, raven haired, thin, lovely. I'm bi, handsome.
"Jefferson was a busy boy this weekend. Wonder if he managed to make rent?"
Ha! You're right. Isn't tomorrow the 1st?
anon@ 9:01: Like I said, I'm off my soapbox for the moment (ahem). Sorry. I do know what you're saying. This is deeper than a problem about semantics though, and while I also think prostitution should be legal, I think the issue has so much around it that it can't easily be captured by simply saying one is pro-prostitution.
It's very easy for people like us--feminist, presumably educated and advantaged (as readers of blogs tend to be), to think of prostitution as meaning only someone like 'college call girl' or Heidi Fliess.
The reality for the bulk of them is more like the desperation I described. Is legalization alone enough to help those women?
I don't know. I don't think so, and I don't have an easy answer.
:(
Hi, I just want to say that not all of the girls that participated in the CL stuff were young, sexually inexperienced, or coerced.
While I am young, I'm far from sexually inexperienced. And was that way when I met Jefferson.
I did sex work before I met Jefferson (I was the college call girl doing it for fun and money).
And I was never, ever coerced into anything by him.
And as mad as I am at him, and as big of a liar I think he is, I have a hard time believing anyone was really coerced. Perhaps bad decisions were made, but coercion? I really kinda doubt it.
well that willy wonka shit worked. dacia shut down comments there. meanwhile it's her blog and her resume that gives his identity away more then anything.
Avah, forgive my poor word choice. Perhaps 'manipulated' or 'pressured' is a better word than coercion.
I think some of the women involved in that activity felt very ambivalent about it, and didn't necessarily anticipate or plan for it, from what I've read. That's all I meant. It doesn't seem like there's any doubt that he's a manipulator.
(Ps: I didn't have you in mind when I was writing about college call girl. Isn't that someone's blog? That's what I was thinking of. Perhaps that blog is you and I didn't know it. Anyways, no offense intended)
ITA with Avah that any speculation about coercion is going too far. He is almost certainly relying on sex-for-money transactions to support himself (see the craigslist ads) and it looks like he has a "slim raven-haired 21-year-old" (listing her age like a selling point is so slimy) girl willing to help him. I think what a lot of people assume is "older man over 40" + "woman under 25" = "power imbalance" and I think that is often true but we DO NOT have proof of that. The only example I have seen of Jefferson going too far was what he did to Nadia ("Diary of a Kinky Librarian") which is in my mind definitely assault (but unrelated to any sex-for-money allegations). Jefferson trades on his status as a sex blogger and his ability to make women feel "special" somehow to draw women to him. Judging from the emerging stories, he really is a predator of sorts and he relies on certain vulnerabilities to extract money, booze, sex, or whatever other needs he has from women (maybe men too, but they may be harder for him to manipulate, who knows). What he does is not done by force. That doesn't make it okay. Does it make him a bad father? Hard to say. Sorry, Diva, I'll shut up now!
@ Anonymous 1.0, Unfortunately, legalizing prostitution probably would not be enough to lift the women you describe out of their situation. There is a myriad of factors at work there and as you said there are no easy answers. It's heartbreaking really. Many of these women (and some men) don't stand a chance at having any kind of safe life with the small comforts that most of us take for granted.
My arm chair assessment of Jefferson is use of psychological coercion to get engagement in the sex acts. Not physical force or threats of bodily harm. I am sure that some of the women would have done whatever anyway but there are those that he seemed to push just a little farther.
An example of using mental bullying is found in the e-mail Jefferson wrote to Diva posted on this blog. If you don't bring bourbon...you'll be meeting Tess a lot earlier...(or some such wording, I didn't go back to the post for the exact wording but the meaning was very clear and chilling.)
Diva, he's like a classic drug addict. "No I won't use. I promise. I don't even want to take drugs again." And then they do. Same for Jefferson and the sex parties. I am just glad that you didn't sign that lease because you could have gotten into a lot of trouble. You posted that he had a bukkake party listing out on the web while living in his new apartment so he has been continunig his regular behavhior for awhile now. Are these parties legal? Who knows? But do you really want to be taken to court to find out? If you name is on the lease you are responsible for the apartment too.
I will say it again. Some of the Friends of Jefferson knew Jefferson for much longer than you did. They were not willing to sign the lease with him. But, they were happy to let you go out and take this risk. They are manipulative and did not have YOUR best interests in mind. Only their own.
Dacia closed her comments. Would it be too much to suggest that Willy Wonka continued posting to get exactly that result?
YMMV but the writing style seemed similiar to Jefferson's to me. And the newsworthiness of Jefferson's real name? Please!
I am starting to pity Jefferson.
He reminds of that Studio 54 guy. The owner who was shut down. Mike Myers played him in the movie. (Jefferson, who do you want to play you in the movie?)
The people around Jefferson, some of whom he has hurt, seem to be getting on with their lives. Some may be stronger for having known him, either from positive or negative interactions or a mix of both. But they are moving on to something better.
Is he?
Sorry Diva for making this my personal message space but I don't any other way to make contact. Just this one time, pleeeese.
Anonymous 1.0, if you hava a blog, I would be interested in reading it. You sound like you really think through issues and have something to say. Myself, I am both too lazy and not interesting enough to write somewhere regularly.
Thank you Diva.
I'm an outsider to this, in that I've only met Jefferson once, and I've never met you. I continue to feel sorry for the children, who I assume will eventually come to read everything that's been written. And I don't mean to suggest Jefferson isn't responsible for that, but I would guess that won't make it any easier on his kids.
What is the purpose of posting all of these emails and information? Aren't you worried you will be dragged into this, contacted by Jefferson's ex's lawyers? If you aren't, I really am curious - why work through this publicly?
Just an fyi....
ip addresses are all um.. relative.
meaning there are plenty of proxy games that can be played to make it seem someone is posting from north korea or forest hills.
It depends on how savvy the poster is.
I'm not using a proxy now. And have posted to your blog before.
Again with no proxy so I dont mean to strike fear into ya or anything of the sort but I am just letting you know as someone who has run little websites before, if someone wants to hide their identitity its easy to do so.
"avah said...
Hi, I just want to say that not all of the girls that participated in the CL stuff were young, sexually inexperienced, or coerced"
Okay but we're talking about a group of people who perhaps took their research a little too far, and created a false environment where the standard of "experimentation" was pretty extreme. Here you have an adult who holds himself up as a parental figure and sometimes sex educator that created a social clique with a very high bar for what they were expected to handle. Even if the girls liked being told they had to strip naked 10 seconds after meeting the guy, you have to remember there was a false sense of safety based on reading all of these blogs (it's not like you all met him at a Greyhound Station)....and the one who spoke out about how she felt assaulted at his sex party was rejected and ostracized entirely.... and her posts detailing what happened, with the discussion about it isn't online any more, and the new posts naming him or the discussion over non-disclosure of her herpes has probably been lost on a number who only joined in on the "fun" in the past couple years.
So yeah, maybe the raven haired girl from his CL ad is some empowered veteran sex worker who came up with the ad on CL herself...but uh.. those posts sure sound like someone is getting pimped.
anon@ 11:14
You said "An example of using mental bullying is found in the e-mail Jefferson wrote to Diva posted on this blog. If you don't bring bourbon...you'll be meeting Tess a lot earlier...(or some such wording, I didn't go back to the post for the exact wording but the meaning was very clear and chilling.)"
I agree. I also agree with everything else you've said. I almost mentioned this incident in my comment.
The other example that sprang to mind was Jefferson sending a flurry of emails to Diva after she said she didn't think she should co-sign his lease, and he acted as if he'd never read that email. He suddenly changed his email habits and sent a lot of emails some of which had pics of his kids. That seemed like very blatant manipulation and it horrified me. Full credit to Diva for realizing that he was trying to pull at her heartstrings. I have no doubt that Diva really feels for his kids and has always wanted to help them. Jefferson seems to have known exactly which buttons to push.
hi anon@ 12:11,
"Anonymous 1.0, if you hava a blog, I would be interested in reading it." Wow, I'm flattered-- Thank you!
I don't have a blog. I'm the laziest person on earth and have a very sheltered and boring life. < blush >
There is a tendency to inadvertantly minimize the assualt experience by using the words, "she felt". The blogger who has written about her experience has actually always used the words "I was assualted". Her description of events, which I can't find anymore, would seem to fit the definition of criminal sexual assualt found here:
http://www.nycagainstrape.org/survivors_legal.html
http://www.kinkylibrarian.net/index.php/2008/06/20/the-negative-side-of-sex/
This is the link you're all looking for of the assault.
Well, fine. Whenever you decide to insult all of Jefferson's lovers and those who participated in the CL activities I just request that who ever is doing the writing just always include an "Except Avah". Deal?
Avah, what is your comment responding to?
No, that link to Kinky Librarians post was not the actual post from when the incident happened. I can't say if she was raped or not, but the responses she got should have been enough to make any aspiring sex party slut run for the hills.
Also buried was the discussion regarding the conscious choice Jefferson made not to disclose herpes at his parties.
whoa who has herpes?
Are we talkin simplex cold sores or the genital kind?
And if it was not discussed at these "gatherings" what else was not discussed? HPV or other STD's?
I always read on these sex blogs almost like a copy and paste " and then he pulled out the condom". Were condoms always used?
Just curious.
As my current and old blog have been mentioned I thought I'd weigh in. Yes, I feel that what happened to me was assault. I asked him to stop and told him he was hurting me, and he refused to stop. Simple story. People defended his actions, saying "Well he was drunk" and Jefferson did his best to make me out to be crazy. I assert that I'm not crazy, just not willing to keep my mouth shut about what he did. I didn't mention him by name (or even hint at him) on my old blog, but two years after the assault I felt brave enough to mention him on my new blog (particularly back when I had a really low readership). I was afraid of him for a long time after the assault. I'm not as afraid anymore.
As for herpes not being mentioned at his parties - I have herpes and asked about disclosure before attending his parties. A sex educator friend of his (and mine, at that time) wrote a long blog (http://educatedslut.blogspot.com/2004/12/ignorant-sluts.html) about why disclosure is not mandatory (in her eyes). I've since had a physician agree with that stance as the risk of transmission really isn't that great (3-5% of couples not using condoms transmit to their uninfected partner per year - add condoms and antiviral use to that and you lower the risk more), plus herpes is prevalent enough that I couldn't possibly be the only person there with it (a roomful of sluts and no one else would have something that 25% of the population has?). I later found out that someone else who went to the parties regularly at that time had recurring HPV (warts), so I certainly wasn't the only risk there (and he wasn't going around disclosing). The fact is, if you're going to a sex party it's up to YOU to ask your partners, and even then you should assume they have everything under the sun and take the precautions necessary to get the risk to an acceptable level for you. Testing can be inaccurate and frequently herpes goes undetected (not to mention 90% of the population has oral herpes, which can be transmitted genitally by oral sex). I use condoms all the time, can't speak for everyone but what I saw years ago at those parties was people using condoms.
Just my 2 cents.
Condoms were used at parties, but not always in one on one situations. This is as much the fault of partner as it was Jeffersons.
Anonymous 1.0, I know it gets confusing with all the anon posts but it was me that you quoted in your last post and it was me asking you about a blog. See why I would enjoy reading you?
My 2 cents on the herpes disclosure is that I would want to know if the person knew. I could assess my risk from that point. I realize that it's naive to think all people will be honest and I know you have to take personal responsibility but I would like to know.
I'm really troubled to read that someone felt assaulted at one of Jefferson's parties. This isn't the first time I've heard this and it really troubles me.
How many others are there, women who've felt assaulted or coerced at Jefferson's parties?
The point isn't to turn this into a debate about the ethics of STI disclosure so much as to point out that there was a false sense of safety connected to these parties, both figuratively, and literally where in which young people of both genders were led to believe they were experimenting in a safe, open and healthy situation with some who at times represented themselves as a sex educators. I can't fault the naive, or careless or flat our ignorant for not asking the right questions or reading the right blog entry in that situation.
....and call me crazy, but I don't think the average 21 year old girl is equipped for sex work, anonymous gangbangs, and bukkake parties. The common element in all these stories is Jefferson.
So, in your minds, at what age does one develop sexual autonomy?
The common element is Jefferson, but we have to remember, he doesn't really seek women out. They seek him out precisely BECAUSE they have read his stories and decided there's something there they want.
And as a young woman who sought him out, Jefferson may help you push your boundaries but he follows your lead in what turns you on. I never expressed interest in any group sex or CL activity and was never pressured to. Were you Diva?
Ya'll may have a point in that, from reading those who write blogs, some women pursue Jefferson for the wrong reasons. They are insecure or depressed and looking to fill some void. Diva herself has said that her depression and unhappiness with her marriage was what led her to Jefferson. So I'd ask, because of her age, does she have more sexual autonomy than a healthy 21 yr old? ...Or even a depressed 21 year old, for that matter?
This isn't meant as an insult. Just meant to say, all people have their problems and may not make good decisions for themselves. And I don't think there is any real way to tell one's insides from the outside.
There's a line drawn a line in the sand of what's legal. Beyond that, Jefferson isn't responsible for mental health screening. (to an extent of course, the clearly crazy should be out).
Actually, in some ways, his willingness to accept people as they are is honorable, in my dating life I'm not nearly as forgiving.
Oh please, can we just stop pretending Jefferson is the Mother Theresa of Fuck for now on? He's a sex addict. Fucking is clearly a compulsion. If every third female he met magically took the lead and asked for beatings and gangbangs, well who knows, but that's not the story we get from the blogs which increasingly describe scenarios where things went farther then they expected.
We read the blogs from those who resolved the experience was fun, but what about those who didn't blog, or stopped after three posts never to be heard from again? Who knows, but the idea that contacting Jefferson equals an open contract for consent makes me sick.
yeah, anon@9:50am, while i definitely see where you're coming from i'm inclined to disagree on a couple of points.
first off, while i agree that there isn't a golden age at which one reaches sexual autonomy (and have actually argued as such in jefferson's comments when someone criticised him for taking younger partners), i think that older people have to be very careful not to exploit their "sexual mentor" status when they take a younger partner. and that goes for both the physical and the emotional aspects of the relationship. there's a difference between a caring and mutually stimulating relationship between an older man and a younger woman and a relationship where the man subtly goads the woman into behaviour she may not have felt comfortable with.
second off, i don't think that in contacting jefferson many of these younger women actively consented to have their sexual and emotional boundaries tested. to be fair, many people did contact him for exactly that reason, but as mentioned earlier they thought jefferson represented a safe environment in which they could play out fantasies deemed unacceptable in normal society. i don't think it ever crossed their minds that jefferson could abuse his position of power, because he professed to be an ethical non-monogamist. and this goes for older partners as well as younger - naivete doesn't always disappear with age.
I agree with what desire said.
One thing I have never understood about Jefferson was that he remained involved with many women, usually younger than he, whose blogs often reflected great emotional pain over the relationship. He had to be aware of it, because he clearly read their blogs, occassionally commenting and always managing to link their posts about fucking--but never their posts about loneliness or crying or confusion.
That's just wrong. I think he had a responsibility to care about the wellbeing of those he was involved with. I think he should have been especially careful with the emotions of others, especially the much younger and those for whom poly was a new(ish) experience.
But he isn't mr Ethical PolyAmory, and we do all need to stop pretending he was the Mother Teresa of Fuck, as anon put it (ha! wonderful phrase).
I say again: he never seemed to get involved with women who weren't lacking either sexual experience, life experience, or both. Funny, isn't it.
Please remember... not everyone who has ever been involved with him kept a blog... there are many stories not being told. Stories of women with lives, loads of sexual experience, jobs, friends and family.
Sure they must have been mental masochists in someway to get involved with him. He plays the part you need him too.
You don't know all the stories, because not everyone is interested in sharing them. There are those of us, who then, like now, perfer to remain off blog.
Desire and Anon 1.0 -
I definitely believe in the campsite rule Point well taken as far as his responsibility not to inflict any emotional trauma.
However, I'm not convinced he abused this position. To me, the rule means an older partner shouldn't play twisted mind games on younger partners. It doesn't mean the younger person has no responsibilty for thier own emotional well-being.
Women who enter into relationships with Jefferson have a choice. He is upfront as can be about what he is offering.
If you want more than that, if you are going to be hurt by non-monagamy, or need the egostroke of being a special snowflake in his world, then this isn't a relationship you should choose.
Likewise, if you do not know or are unable to express what you want to experience. Well, you might leave feeling "goaded" or emotionally damaged - but I'd argue that's true with any lover if you can't express your sexual desires.
Youth does not deem you incapable of making decisions about the right relationship for you, nor does it keep you from expressing your needs/wants, nor from taking other precautions against emotional harm.
This isn't blaming the victim, it just goes back to my original point that outward appearances say little about what's going on inside. And I don't think it's Jefferson's responsibility to decide who is emotionally equipped to "handle" him (or that he even has that capability!) And I don't think he sets out with evil intentions to harm.
By my estimate, he's accounting for emotional damage best as anyone can be expected to.
- 9:50
*This is only re: his supposed grooming and damaging of younger women. I express no opinion about any assualt, I know nothing about it. I can only speak from my own experience where he led, but I had an equal hand in deciding where we went.
9:50 again...
Diva, I wrote my last comment before reading your latest post.
I can't remember exactly what I wrote (my comment's not up yet), but I know I imputed responsibility for wanting to feel special to the women in Jefferson's life.
You are right that Jefferson encouraged us each to feel "special". What Jefferson does there is maybe a dangerous game, but it still goes back to intentions for me. And I don't think he was cruelly playing with our emotions, I don't think love is something of limited supply.
What I meant before was that women might set themselves up for emotional damage if they seek Jefferson out because they NEED to feel "special". He shares affection with many people - we might all have our own unique something but we can't all be most important.
I stand by my comment, I just wanted clarify and say that it was not in response to you.
"Women who enter into relationships with Jefferson have a choice. He is upfront as can be about what he is offering."
So basically to paraphrase, you're saying "Bitches wasn't complaining when he was fucking them".
Really though, at this point I wouldn't expect the ladies of Jeffersonland to respond any differently but it's pretty clear what type of scenarios we're talking about and it's not the mutual, consentual, episodes of willing participants happy to just be in the same room worshipping sweet dick Jefferson.
Anyone else remember the gangbang where he blogged about the burden of finding participants last minute, and the process of gathering random men off Craigslist in time to stand in as his friends. The girl was under the impression Jefferson was arranging for this experience with his fuckhouse regulars. Now was he upfront about it? Was the girl able to make make an educated choice based on trust? So there's an example of a willing participant who was still manipulated and deceived. Thanks sweet dick! Deprogramming is down the hall, and to the left.
"Anyone else remember the gangbang where he blogged about the burden of finding participants last minute, and the process of gathering random men off Craigslist in time to stand in as his friends. The girl was under the impression Jefferson was arranging for this experience with his fuckhouse regulars."
I don't remember that. Yuck! People met via CL can be anyone. Anyone at all. That is very different than working with a trusted group. Double yuck! Couldn't you reschedule the gang bang?
anon 10:45-
I have no clue who you are. We're talking about Jefferson ma'dear. From what I know, his limits are broad and far reaching. He'd probably like the strangers-CL type of situation rather than a comfortable situation for the girl, which would freak the girl out in most situations. He definitely wasn't thinking of her.
Just to clarify - I haven't posted a comment before, in fact I am fairly certain I have not commented on Diva's blog in the past. I have fucked Jefferson in the past, however I came to that full of both sexual and life experience. To be clear, I am of the mind that the women (and men) who chose to get involved with him were to some extent in charge of guarding their own emotional wellbeing, and that some are better equipped than others to do so, no matter their age. That does not mean he is not a master manipulator, though that was not my experience. However, I stayed very clearly on the periphery of "the scene", community, whatever one wants to call it, and of Jefferson's life as well. In part because I have always had an innate distrust for "scenes", and one that is shored up with recent events. I have the suspicion that even well-meaning people get caught up in what amounts to peer pressure - and I don't like to be one of those people.
Identity-wise, I know only one small real-life nugget of information, but it proved exceedingly simple for me to ID Jefferson - a fact I find disturbing, and one that reinforces the procrastination I have been partaking of in starting my own blog (not that Jefferson ever encouraged me too, just for the record). I would still love to journal and eventually blog, but the idea of making something public only when I am old enough that it will not impact my career and whatnot is increasingly appealing! It is just not a world where positive sexuality is approved of in many places, and I would not want to get caught up in that.
Sorry for the rambling...I don't comment much around the web, but I clearly have lots simmering around in my brain!!
~anon 3.14
"So basically to paraphrase, you're saying "Bitches wasn't complaining when he was fucking them". "
Don't inaccurately paraphrase me. I said that Jefferson is upfront about what a relationship with him means. And women knowingly seek him out in spite of, or more accurately, BECAUSE he offers kinky sex in a non-committed-relationship.
In doing so, they make a choice. And gauging whether they are emotionally able to handle that kind of sex/relationship, I think is a responsibility that falls primarily into their own hands.
If we are going to inaccurately paraphrase me, "bitches made a choice" would be somewhat closer. But paraphrasing is really a poor way to address a nuanced argument, because I certainly didn't say it with that sentiment.
"I said that Jefferson is upfront about what a relationship with him means."
Please stop pretending this is a conversation about kinky sex, and monogamy at this point.
It's insulting, and it belittles the real issues being discussed, along with the bravery Diva and others have shown in finally speaking out. They're not speaking out against Kinky sex. In retrospect, having sex with Jefferson wasn't an exercise in empowerment after all.
Listen, I'm only disputing the comments about him supposedly coercing young women. In that conversation, kink and expectations and sexual autonomy are all relevant.
I know I'm not addressing all of the many "real issues" being discussed here. There are many conversations being had in this space. I don't think it belittles one to talk about another when it's raised.
"Listen, I'm only disputing the comments about him supposedly coercing young women. In that conversation, kink and expectations and sexual autonomy are all relevant"
No, you're speaking from your own perspective having fucked him and needing to assert yourself out of fear your "choice" reflects poorly on you. To discount the accusations of coercion because they were willing participants in kink, and non-monogamy is really disgusting. I have nothing but harsh words for anyone who thinks they can write off any of these accusations at this point.
I'm sure there are former Branch Davidians who felt mischaracterized too.
Considering this communities history of not addressing problems for fear of ruining the fun,or judging, I think it's time you start erroring on the side of the potential victims. And if you're not a victim, and resent being thought of one, then you're probably in the majority of people who slept with Jefferson ... well if you're not one of the girls we're talking about who were manipulated, then goodie.... but don't distract us from finally talking about the ones who were.
I don’t really think this is going anywhere. I’m not going to argue with you about my character or motives, I’ve said my piece.
If you discount it because I’ve been with him, or by associating me with a Branch Davidian, or because I have no personal knowledge of any manipulation (beware: this last one might disqualify you too)… well, what can I do.
Lastly, and I should just go silent now, but I can’t help but point this out. When you talk about Jefferson coercing people into crazy sex acts in the future, let’s be precise. You probably don’t want to say “they were willing participants in kink and non-monogamy”. If they were willing at the time or if they didn't express to the other person that they were NOT willing, that’s not coercion. That’s just sex they regret in retrospect.
Yeah, I’m so not ending this as the bigger person. Oh well.
~anon 3.14,
I think there is a risk undertaken whenever someone blogs publically. If you are not comfortable with even an infintesimal chance of being found out in your real life, I recommend against you doing it. Even if you privitize your blog later, it can still show up well afterward in the wayback machine, bloglines, etc.
Jefferson takes real life discovery to a new level with giving out his address and his phone number but as I have said on here before, I think he really does want to be outed. There was no reason to be SO truthful and precise in that Time Out article. Maybe he feels like it would make him whole to merge his former self with Jefferson?
But ~anon 3.14, you might have more to lose than that.
Actually I have I think much less at risk than Jefferson - but it is precisely these thoughts which are tossing around in my head, and which let me know that I did the right thing in thus far NOT starting a blog. I am not ashamed of anything I have done, but this is not a perfect world and obviously not everyone will agree with me, thus my decision so far not to blog about those things that might be looked upon in a bad light by future employers, etc. Who was it who said, picture everything you write appearing on the front page of the Times? Sage advice.
A much better post addressing so many of my own, larger picture questions, is here: http://sexinthepublicsquare.org/ElizabethsBlog/writing-sex-and-parenting The balance of provoking change by not keeping silent, and the risk that you take by doing so, is certainly a tricky one.
~anon 3.14
Wow what a great idea Anon 3.14. Glad you thought of it albeit 2 hours after I did.
Didn't you realize as a blogger I am also an attention whore and would want credit.
Sheesh. Copycat.
*winks*
Sorry tess I actually lurve you to pieces and so please take my word it was entirely accidental not to credit you! Of course, you are how I found that post at all - and went "hey someone is in my head!" at it, too. Suffice it to say, quite aside from all this drama (which actually has very little indeed to do with me) I have quite a bit on my mind!
And, y'know, I'm not up on all the blogging, attention-whore protocol. ;-)
~3.14
"If they were willing at the time or if they didn't express to the other person that they were NOT willing, that’s not coercion."
Coercion, and mind manipulation can take on many forms during the course of intimacy. I said they were willing to engage in kink and non-monogamy, that doesn't mean they knowingly, and willingly signed up to be deceived, or fucked by strangers, or turned out. Whatever though. I don't expect much perspective or common sense from anyone who thought it was cool to fuck a guy who let's his friends fuck in his kids bed.
Anon 3.14
Just keep up the praise and sincere compliments, we attention whores are simple creatures in that one way.
Thanks. And thanks for seconding my sentiments.
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